Savvi Recruitment Podcast
Episode 7 - Tips for Crafting Your Finance Recruitment Strategy
In our latest podcast, Jennifer Cahill and Therese Cadell, co-founders of Savvi Recruitment, along with John Ennis, Associate Director of Savvi Recruitment discuss the different recruitment strategy trends they’re seeing in the market currently.
Savvi Recruitment works with a range of clients, all of whom are finding it tough at the moment in terms of having lots of competition to try and hire, particularly in areas of risk, compliance, finance, data analytics and consulting.
In this podcast we share tips and tricks around client recruitment strategies that are working well and are getting good engagement from a candidate perspective, with the aim of being able to help you attract talent and get ahead of the competition and to be able to secure those candidates!
Episode 07 | Savvi Recruitment Podcast | Podcast Transcript
Jennifer Cahill:
So, welcome to the current episode of The Savvi Podcast, where we really just wanted to come on and speak about what we're seeing in the market. Because, I think everybody knows it's a very competitive market at the moment. All of our clients are up against it in terms of having lots of competition to try and hire, particularly in areas of risk, compliance, finance, data analytics, consulting. Pretty much everything, finance across the whole range of areas that we cover and we would see mostly within the financial services sector. So, we wanted to come on, just share what we're seeing around recruitment strategies. Share some sort of evidence in terms of recruitment strategies that are working well.
Jennifer Cahill:
That are getting good engagement from a candidate perspective, and those lines are able to attract and get ahead of their competition and being able to secure those candidates. And also maybe some tips on what not to do, but might feel intuitively something you feel you might have to do, given the market. So again, just kind of, it's really just tips and tricks and our observations in the market in the last couple of months. So I might go to you, John, just to kind of, I suppose, just even anecdotal examples of what you've seen in terms of clients that are really doing it well out there at the moment in terms of recruitment strategy and what they're doing.
John Ennis:
Yeah. Because as you say, it is highly competitive so you do need to kind of stand out when you go to the market and that can be hard to do in a noisy market. And any candidate that we've seen in recent times, who's on the market or open to an opportunity will have two or three by the end of it to choose from anyway, so that they're, everybody is looking for people with the same skill sets effectively. So when they're on the market, they're bound to have something else that they'll be pursuing or they'll be open to benchmarking against your own. So from a client perspective, I think it's always trying to stand out in that process and that can be difficult to do.
John Ennis:
But some of the key things I think to do is to, from the very start is to be very clear in terms of what you're looking for. And when you're working with your recruitment partners, whether it be their in-house recruiters or ourselves, agency recruiters, it's what we find works really well, is collaboration from the start. To give a good example of a client who's looking for kind of a head of risk in this quarter one, of this year. And they really came to us and engaged very well from the outset, which I found worked very well in terms of clearly defining kind of the profile that they were looking for, what the job entailed, what they absolutely must have, and then asking our advice in terms of what the market could provide in terms of budget and salary level and that.
John Ennis:
So everyone has very clearly defined parameters of what we're looking to achieve and what we're looking to get in the market so that when you're going to the market, you can talk to people around what it is and what it isn't as well. So you're screening in as much as screening out, I think, in the current market to make sure that you're getting that pool of candidates. And I think that's really important from the outset and it kind of sets the tone for the whole recruitment strategy that I would see it as it goes down towards it, because it is a long process, really, especially at the more senior end of the market where we would kind of specialize in the mid to senior end. It is a longer process kind of 8 to 12 weeks would be what our normal cycle times would often be throughout the process to get the right candidate to offer accept from starting a search.
John Ennis:
And I think one of the key things is setting out that clearly defined roadmap with timelines along the way, and then communicating that to the candidate, because at the end of the day, the candidate is quite invested in the process by the time they get into the second and third interview. So you have to communicate with them as to what the steps are, what the engagement process is, so that nobody drops off during the process so that you have them there at the end. And that's where I see a lot of frustration with clients who don't have that kind of mapped out because they'll go to interviews and then they won't have next steps ready. And then it'll all start to break down mid process. And that's frustrating for the clients and the candidates. And it's difficult then to go back to market as well. So I would say from the outset, you have to have a very clear kind of roadmap to how it's going to work from the very start and from the very engagement process as to when you're defining what you actually want.
John Ennis:
And I think those ones, especially on the senior hires, work very well, and as you say, it is a very competitive landscape. So you have to adapt that strategy, I think, to adapt to the market, adapt your strategy to the market and I know people will always say, it's speed that gets you over the end, but clients want, always say, oh, we want someone as quick as possible, but they want the right person. And the right person will do their due diligence as well. So it's not necessarily moving very quickly, but it is keeping the momentum up and keeping everyone informed of the timelines on it in that respect and moving again, if your preferred candidate is moving faster in one process, maybe you'll have to up it a little bit. So it is about movement in that respect, not necessarily losing the rigor around your interview process though.
Jennifer Cahill:
And we had that in one example last year, where again, very competitive around a risk and compliance role where we, they agreed given the momentum that they'd move people through from second to final round, even before others had finished that second round process, because they already knew that person was very strong and they definitely wanted them to meet other people. So instead of waiting, because there was a delay on another person coming in at second round, they progressed that person through. So it's those kind of pivots as you go through the process and having that flexibility to kind of adapt in real time if, needs be as well, which worked really effectively in that particular process as well. Therese, I'm sure you...
John Ennis:
Internally for the bigger ones. Sorry, I just think internally for the bigger ones, just in terms of having even who they are going to meet, who are the key people that they need to meet, having that all detailed from the very first engagement of knowing what's going to happen from your side. Now, things will pop up, people may be away, that kind of thing. But if you communicate that with the candidate, you don't lose anything at that stage. People would expect and things pop up on the candidate side as well. You know, that they're away on holiday, they've meetings, they can't move that quickly. So that will, there will always be tweaks that you make along the way. But if you have a clearly defined roadmap, it keeps it easier to keep it to that plan.
Jennifer Cahill:
No, definitely. Totally agree. Therese would you, I'm sure you would agree on that point, but any other elements that you've seen that have worked really well?
Therese Cadell:
I think just to expand on that point as well, on the process before the others, it's the most successful ones is the one you can say it's going to be a three round interview. First is online, second is technical test. Third, the client will want to meet you face to face. It's going to happen over this duration. And so it's mapped out from the start because invariably, that candidate will be in other processes. So at least yes, as John said, a couple of things will pop up. But again, it's very much, what's the candidate journey with the client. I suppose, the other part is maybe on communication and overly communicating insofar as the more information we're armed with. And obviously we're very lucky the clients we deal with, we know their business, we know their requirements.
Therese Cadell:
The more information we have about what's happening in the business, what's happening within the next 6 to 12 months, what are the requirements, immediately. But given what, what's the body of work that's coming down. Again, it's that hook that you're getting the candidate in. It's not just the immediate job, it's the potential, it's the opportunity, so again, it's the information piece and candidates just want to know, they want to know more and more and they will go off and they'll do their research. But again, it's down to information communication. That's the key that I'm seeing at the minute.
Jennifer Cahill:
And I think that's sometimes maybe not overlooked, but maybe seen as extra detail or a detail that we might not necessarily need. But as you said, hundreds are very astute in this market and because they have a number of options, it is, let's say we're kind of storytellers. We do need to be able to convey the story of your particular business, where it is right now, but what are the ambitions for where it wants to be in 12 months to 3 years’ time and how that journey might align with the candidates journey career wise in terms of where they want to go. And ultimately from anything I've seen in the last 10 plus years in recruitment people work for people, you know what I mean? There has to be that chemistry ultimately, between the person going in and the person that they'll report to and the wider team and that sense of, I suppose, the elusive fit, but it is that kind of chemistry test and value alignment, and that's becoming more and more important.
Jennifer Cahill:
And, we see a lot more companies leading with value statements and being able to demonstrate how they operate according to those value statements and particularly flexibility, obviously at the moment. I know there's been a lot of talk in the last couple of months around hybrid working models, work from home, I think, well, definitely from anything I've seen in the last couple of months, it's the first question, really. You know what I mean? Is there flexibility? What is that flexibility? And looking for quite a bit of clarity around that. And I know some firms obviously understandably, have had to take a number of months to really just work all that out and kind of put together their policy around work from home. But in general, we're seeing three days in the office, two days working from home, but there are lots of other clients where there is more flexibility around that.
Jennifer Cahill:
So there is quite a lot of variation, but it is one of the biggest factors right now and the experience that everybody has had going through COVID, where even over salary, you know what I mean? It's really your flexible working environment and what kind of flexibility and the trust that's there and even around hours, you know what I mean? That is really clenching really good candidates. And even that's from people, it's not just working parents that have these concerns, it's sort of everybody, because they're seeing it as an indication of culture within a firm, regardless of whether they might actually decide to go in five days, but they want to know that option is there, particularly if they're looking to build a career with a particular firm for the longer time, I think that's, they're taking that as a real cue more to cut that through.
John Ennis:
It nearly could kind of can be seen as a trust issue now, more so than as much as a flexibility issue from a work life balance, it's kind of like, do you trust me to do the job, because the other way of working wasn't as trustful, maybe that you had to be jacket over the back of the chairs or else you weren't actually there. But no, I think that we're certainly seeing flexibility as a new currency. I would nearly put it in right at the top and I'm not saying it would displace salary. Everybody works for money at the same time, but it is certainly key and it's one of the conversations that we would have. But just on your point there, just in terms of people working for people as well, one of the key questions we would always, when we're debriefing candidates is, how did you get on with the person you would be working for? Because, that is the crucial question.
John Ennis:
It really is, if that doesn't gel from either side, it's not going to work. So that's key, and that's where I think Therese, was saying kind of the in person is definitely back in, now that it's allowed as definitely the final step. If not, sometimes even bringing it in at the first step just to get that meeting as well, face to face.
Jennifer Cahill:
And because we've been in a virtual world for two years. It's only when you step back into the real world and we're actually back meeting people in the flesh. You do, you realize how much you weren't getting from a virtual experience. It's hard, sometimes you're like, oh, this works. You know what I mean? This whole virtual thing, why would we? We don't need to, but it's only when you step back into it and you actually see, in a people-orientated business, and that's where recruitment is. You're dealing with people, and people work for people. There's just something there, there's that chemistry that you just, it's not the same. And well, I've seen clients who hired with the best of intentions, thought that everybody ticked all boxes on both sides and to nobody's fault, when they came back into the real world, it didn't, it just didn't...
John Ennis:
Gel.
Jennifer Cahill:
It didn't gel.
Therese Cadell:
But I would say a lesson to clients as well is, don't keep bringing people back in. It's back to the original, as I said, lay out the process, don't say, look, I want you to meet X. Oh, I think now you should meet Y. Candidates are patient and they want to meet as many as possible, but all this, let's do five or six rounds. I spoke to somebody yesterday who had done eight rounds of interviews with, I suppose, a startup, but a well known startup and then was offered a salary of 30K below what they put out their expectation, which...
John Ennis:
They have a great culture though?
Therese Cadell:
Hmm?
John Ennis:
Did they have a great culture though?
Therese Cadell:
So it was just going, it's why, because this person has a job in the background and they have to, they have a responsibility to their current employer and yes, they're willing to meet these people. They were approached by the team themselves. So it's just, it's a bit frustrating, so.
Jennifer Cahill:
No, it is. And again, comes back to what we were saying at the very beginning. Just the clarity around that process says a lot about the firm as well, because people do read into that. If, it comes across a little bit sketchy and disorganized, then that's kind of what you're portraying to the particular candidate in that process. I would say it doesn't happen as much, now. I think there is more of an awareness particularly given the market and it being more of an employee's market rather than employer's kind of market to pick. And that happened very quickly because during COVID and just coming out of COVID, it was an employer's market. But that turned on its head very quickly last year. So paying attention in an interview and particularly in the virtual world, if you're doing interviews virtually, your camera's probably at the top of your laptop, you know what I mean?
Jennifer Cahill:
You need to make sure that your eye contact is there because you're at home or you're virtual. There might be your phone going off to your side and you feel because you're virtual, you can maybe have a look at that. People can see those things, it's very obvious. It's a real turnoff for a candidate, if they're in an interview going, I kind of felt like I had half their attention throughout that interview. It was clear that they were maybe trying to respond to some emails in the background while they were having the conversation with me. And I know we're all under pressure and it takes time to do interviews, but you have to invest that time. And when you're at the table and you're meeting somebody, your focus, you have to have read their CV.
Jennifer Cahill:
I know this might seem really obvious stuff, but it does still happen where candidates come out going, it was really clear that person had just seen my CV maybe five minutes before they walked into the room or came onto the call. They were asking, you know what I mean? They didn't know my background. They obviously hadn't read it, their attention wasn't there. It doesn't matter how great the job is or how great your company is. If that's their first engagement with who might be their future new boss, you're just, they're, it's a total turn off. It's an absolute turnoff, so they're just not going to, I would say, recruitment is like dating. The dating psychology, it's sort of, if you turn up for a dinner date and somebody's preoccupied across the table, it's not going to go well. So it's a simple human thing...
John Ennis:
Or just say, get through the process. We're going, we like you. But, we're going to have to see a few more people...
Jennifer Cahill:
A few other people.
John Ennis:
Oh, okay. No, that's fine. That's an open relationship then. I can work for someone else as well.
Jennifer Cahill:
But it is, it’s true because that's really the worst feedback you can give to a candidate. God, they really liked you. I know they've interviewed you three times now, but they just want to...
John Ennis:
So, you want to benchmark? Yeah.
Jennifer Cahill:
I always think. Oh my God, if you're going out with somebody for years and they're thinking, oh my God, maybe the next step is marriage. You know what I mean? We're going to offer the job, but I'd like a year out. I just want to benchmark you, we're going out a long time. There could be new candidates that have come into the market. I go, I want to marry knowing, that I've married the best candidate. Who the hell goes back? Sure thing, take 12 months. You'll come back 12 months when you're happy that you've benchmarked me against the market and I'm good to go. So I always think...
Therese Cadell:
Well that sometimes translates as well, Jen. In an interview, when the interviewer is time poor and they approach the interview on reasons why they shouldn't hire you rather than engaging with you, focusing on the positive. So again, if you want that dating analogy, it's like going, looking at all the things that are maybe wrong initially rather than being open to all the right stuff that's in front of you. So it's, it can be a mindset that you will face at interviews. So people have to, both the clients have to go into an interview with the right mindset. This person has taken the time to engage with us. All our team in the background have presented this person. I need to have read the CV. I need to understand that this person knows what the role, the responsibilities, the requirements are. And I need to give them a fair chance and listen and give them my attention for the hour. And that's, to me, that's just basic respect. If, this person is going to be a valuable member of your team. So give them the time and attention that they should get.
John Ennis:
And I think as well, they have to kind of start selling as well. Some people are still stuck in that mindset of like, I mean, we're a great company. I mean, without actually being able to communicate exactly why to a candidate, we're a great company, but they feel that we're a great company. Everybody should be delighted to join us and happy to join us, which is a little bit arrogant sometimes because, you do have to sell to candidates in this market as well. I mean, in terms of why they should join you or why they should leave a perfectly good job to do this job for you. So a lot of candidates are what we call, I suppose, passive in terms of them not actively applying. In fact, I mean, if you put up an ad now, your active applications will be minimal to say the least.
John Ennis:
So, it is about when you engage with candidates, as Therese said, making sure that you're fully engaged, but also that what you want to sell to them during the interview. Just as much as what you want to find out for them, because it's very much a two-way street, and certainly the power, there's a lot of power with the candidates at the moment, which is a good thing. If, you're a good company and you're willing and you're able to communicate that to them, because that will give you a bit of an edge.
Jennifer Cahill:
I think that's a really important point, and it comes back to that point then in terms of where to advertise if people are looking at this and they're looking, we're not seeing. It is like we're nearly, we're pretty much at full employment. So the people that you're looking for in experienced hire across most of the common in-house disciplines are already in jobs. They're probably, anybody who's really miserable in their job, they move because there's so much opportunity out there. So the presumption has to be that whoever is at the table, we've maybe gone to them, kind of passive and sold them this opportunity and really kind of brought them the full story of why they should go and work for you and why this might be a better opportunity for them as opposed to where they are now.
Jennifer Cahill:
So we need the hiring managers to pick that momentum up and to continue that story and know that you're kind of getting somebody that's kind of lukewarm, the onus is on you as the interviewer to sell the story. You know what I mean? And that's just rapid fire around questions and turn focus on just purely and CVs are so one-dimensional, job descriptions are incredibly one-dimensional. Nobody's going to come to the table in this market solely based on God, the job description is really compelling, I've never heard that. So I know people invest a lot of time with them. They are important to, just to chronicle what actually is going to be involved in the role, but they're not as, they're not an attraction tool. Nobody is drawn to a job description, so it is just a tool. It's just a piece of information so they know what the role is, but it is about that interface between us maybe as an agency, if you're using an agency or your in-house talent acquisition team, that first touch point and then making sure that's consistent the whole way through.
John Ennis:
It's a very important point. It has to be aligned because if they hear different things along the channel, along the journey then that'll raise kind of red flags for the candidate as well. So I mean, everybody, again, it comes back to, as you said at the start that you have that roadmap and who you want to involve in the process. And as Therese said, no more than three interviews, but you can have a couple of people in each interview as well, and that can often work better than the one-to-one as well. I find, I think whether virtually or in person, I think it's always better to have at least two interviewers on the thing, if not three. You don't want to go too far into a panel because then it becomes a panel interview sometimes, but you need to have a couple of people there. Again, it shows that investment, it shows that they can ask other people and it's not quite sometimes as intense as one-on-one.
Jennifer Cahill:
Definitely. And about the advertising piece, because again, LinkedIn obviously recruiter and, we hear this actually quite a lot at the moment that candidates are getting bombarded with LinkedIn approaches and recruiter approaches and that I think they are really becoming like spam, but the amount of licenses that are out there, the amount that people are sending out and there's really mixed quality out there in terms of those approaches. And for us, certainly in the last couple of months, it's been more about people we know, it's been about the referral network of people who we know referring potential candidates to us. Kind of coming back to the Little Black Book a little bit more in terms of your network.
John Ennis:
Makes sense.
Jennifer Cahill:
Because again, if you're relying on LinkedIn to try and generate it all by itself, and if you're in an internal talent acquisition team and you're relying on LinkedIn recruiter, you probably need to go back through people who've applied in the past to roles. The people there that you didn't pick up, they weren't suitable. Just that they've had some engagement with your brand before, but again, it comes back to the strength of your brand. So that's...
John Ennis:
And you're assuming that their candidate journey the last time when they weren't successful for the role wasn't quite right for them, was a good journey because you don't, there's no point going back out to somebody who you treated badly through the journey or felt that they got treated badly just through lack of communication, oftentimes. Which is the biggest book where that candidates, we would see, I mean, just online as well as from talking to them, if they got didn't get any feedback or any closure even. It's not like you have to give detailed feedback. Because I know there can be issues around that, but it's just about communicating, and that wasn't quite the right fit or that, and that's up to our job as well is to be that mediator between it and make sure that everybody leaves, that the process... Because only one person can get the job, but you could have three or four very good candidates for that particular job. And there may be something else in the future that you want to go in a tight market, it's good never to burn bridges.
Jennifer Cahill:
And the people who are dissatisfied will always speak louder than the ones who had a really good experience. So I always say, you’ve got to look after the people who you're rejecting nearly more, but definitely to the same extent of the person that you're ultimately offering the job to.
John Ennis:
Yeah.
Therese Cadell:
And I would always say, do you know anybody in that company? Pick up the phone, have you worked with them before? Isn't that the best way to find out about the company and the culture, so it's, have all bases covered so you can make an informed decision. We're obviously working with you, guiding you, you're meeting the people at interview, they're interested. They're showing you what you can achieve within the company. And then just do your background checks within the company, that those that are in there are in a very happy working environment. And they're getting the goals and the reason they joined the company.
Jennifer Cahill:
I think what I have seen is this feeling because there's so much momentum and there's so much speed and people are moving through processes that some hiring managers think, okay, I've met them once. I really like them, let's just go straight to offer, I'm fine. I'm comfortable, we don't need to do a second round. And we're always like, whoa, comes back to the dating analogy. Not too keen, you're positive, you're interested, you're just, there's more horses in the race. You’ve got to play it a bit cool, you know what I mean? A little bit cooler, but it's not a good idea, from a rigorous process perspective, the second round is important. So as much as we're saying, keep momentum, as you said, John, it's not about just rapid speed. It's not about closing this off within a week.
John Ennis:
It's not about, it's not necessarily quick decisions...
Jennifer Cahill:
No.
John Ennis:
But it's just, as you say, I mean, it is that bit of momentum rather than speed, I think it's important differentiator that you are keeping the process moving and everyone's engaged and everyone knows when the next step will take place and to what the feedback was along the way. And then it'll, you'll come to, when you come to the end, you'll still have those couple of candidates that you're trying to decide between, to benchmark against at that point and they'll probably have decisions to make along the way as well. And they might not necessarily be able to make them instantaneously either. So everyone needs to give each other a bit of time at the crucial decision making period as well.
Therese Cadell:
And hiring is key, an incorrect hire can be a very costly hire. To both a team and their time, to the company, to the personnel in there. So, I absolutely agree with what you've both said. And so far as, while there is a process and it's competitive out there, you just need to adhere to it and make sure all the boxes are ticked.
Jennifer Cahill:
And just in terms, I suppose, what I've been doing as part of my study, in the masters at the moment is around, I suppose, academically what's proven to be most effective in terms of interviews. And I would've said actually going in, oh, casual, coffee chat and kind of get to know the person. And not that they're not important, but what's been proven in the, in all the kind of papers and all the studies that have been done is that, it's more competency based type. So in competency, I think people have this kind of going, oh no, give me examples of this or give examples that, and I think, oh, I hate those kind of interviews so much, but it's different to that. It doesn't have to feel as formula as that but it's going in, again it comes back to the clarity piece of HR and the hiring managers sitting down and going, okay, what are the core competencies for this role? Whether it's technical or whether, if it's a leadership role, it's the soft skills around leadership.
Jennifer Cahill:
And it being able to mentor and develop depends what stage this team is at in terms of its development. It's really important that if you're bringing in a manager or leader, those soft skills are as important as the technical ability. Maybe in some cases dependent on the seniority, more important than the technical skillset. So it's really important at the very outset of a role that you're mapping the core competencies for that role. And then when you come to the interview that you're in, your questions are structured around testing for those competencies. And that has been proven to be the most effective in terms of hires that have proven to be long term good, solid hires. And again, if you have the capacity like situational type questions, give them actual real life situations and go, what would you do in this situation? And make it as real life as relevant to the day-to-day as the job as you can, and just see how they think on their feet, see how that person in that real life scenario that they will encounter in this job will react and what would they do?
Jennifer Cahill:
Because again, then you're able to tease out what their kind of, what their kind of intuition will tell them in that particular scenario. And you'll be able to tell them very quickly whether that fits with culturally, how you like things done or that particular team in terms of the methods that you know maybe as a manager, that's going to work with that particular team. So again, rather than just very generic high level questions, and again, maybe not having a plan going into an interview, that the interviewers are very aligned in terms of, okay, going into this interview, fair enough. It's a two-way street as we've discussed, but there are some really core things. And let's be very clear on what those things are that we need to satisfy ourselves in terms of the core competencies.
Jennifer Cahill:
And again, I think that adds clarity at the end of a process around the decision. Because if you were clear going in what the core competencies are, sometimes you can get swayed around and forget those or lose sight of them or other people coming into the process might have a different opinion. But again, that clarity, if you bring it back to those core competencies and look at each candidate, according to those, you'll more than likely make a much better recruitment decision based on that.
Therese Cadell:
And that's interesting, Jen, because one of the companies I'm working with at the minute in advance of interviews, they send out candidates interview preparation notes saying that these are the core competencies, you need to be prepared for them and speak about them at interview. So at least there's, you can see if they prepared, they've thought it out. And they can include it in the interview.
John Ennis:
But I think candidates like that. I mean, one of the questions we would always get before, we would have always as agency recruiters, you're always trying to brief your candidates as well as possible and make sure they're as prepared as possible before they go into interview. Because obviously we want them to do well and get the job as those internal recruiters, as your hiring managers that the candidates have to remember. So the more help you can give them as a company before going, this is the three stages, this one will be this, this one will be technical, this one will be a competency based interview. And you give them that information prior to going in, the more successful interviews you'll have and the more good hires that you'll have at the end of it as well.
Jennifer Cahill:
And different psychometrics, we see different clients, maybe using personality profiles. And again, coming back to what I've been studying, they call it kind of a disk assessment or those, their self reports. It's somebody reporting about themselves. So they have validity, but there's kind of, you definitely the papers and the studies on it would say, look, I don't rely solely on those. And I don't think our clients do. They kind of use them as a compliment to the interviews, but actually if you're hiring at a graduate level, tests for general mental ability GMA, so like aptitude testing on verbal reason and numerical reason, that has been proven to not change over time. So if somebody, and it's kind of aligns more like IQ, you know what I mean? So, and it's more acceptable to grads or more junior candidates to go through an aptitude test.
Jennifer Cahill:
I think when you get to a more experienced level, the kind of base validity of that is much lower. We would see people kind of bulk at the idea of having to do an aptitude test at the manager level as a whole. But certainly if, you're listening to this and you're in the process of looking at graduate recruitment, I would highly recommend that you look at including an aptitude test because, somebody who comes out quite high on that, it doesn't change over time, emotional intelligence you can learn and you can develop, and that can change over time, but IQ and GMA does not change over time. So get them in early, get them in bright, hungry, right cultural fit. But it, I think it's a good thing just to get in early and to do those when they're open to doing them.
John Ennis:
I suppose, at that level, as well as they're always saying, you should not hire for attitude. A lot of companies used to have this kind of, you had to have a one, first class or a two, one or something like that. But a lot of them, even the bigger ones, like the big four have scrapped that, because it is about looking for a broader and more diverse candidate rather than it, as well as the technical ability at that level, and it is about attitude and aptitude.
Jennifer Cahill:
Oh, big time.
Therese Cadell:
And you always get a sense of their willingness to learn, you know what I mean? The energy, whether they're eager and that speaks volumes over. Obviously, they're smart people if they get into college and, but invariably I'd love that attitude over the academics.
Jennifer Cahill:
Actually, we have a client who has a policy of not hiring one, at all, because feel they couldn't possibly be well rounded if they’ve got a 1:1.
John Ennis:
Biased in the other direction.
Jennifer Cahill:
Exactly. So it's all, but look, that is, and look, we might do another feature in terms of the bias because look at, gender, diversity, all types of diversity and inclusion is massive. And it's a huge priority for HR and for corporates in terms of their ability to report on this and demonstrate it through recruitment processes. And it's certainly something we're seeing a lot of push back on us as the external agencies by our clients to demonstrate that we have looked at a broad, diverse market and rightly so. But again, we might come back on at a later at the point, because there are some easy things that you can do to maybe try and counter because everybody has biases. There's no point trying to say, we want to eradicate biases. That's not realistic.
Jennifer Cahill:
Everybody has them. It's about structuring a process where you eliminate as much as possible, the impact of bias in your ultimate decision. So again, I think we'll maybe come back on and talk about that at a later point, if there's any pointers. But look, I think we're going to leave it for that for today. Again, we didn't want to spend too long. We just wanted to come on kind of give our sense of what's happening, what people are doing well out there. And also if you want a more in depth kind of just an audit of your recruitment strategy, we're offering a free workshop, 90 minute workshop, absolutely no obligation. You can book that through our website, www.savvirecruitment.com. And as I said, it's 90 minutes free time that we will invest in you and run through your recruitment strategy with you and make specific advice in relation to elements that we feel you maybe could change or tweak that would serve you better, particularly in this really active and competitive market. Thanks very much.
John Ennis:
Thanks.
Therese Cadell:
Okay. See you. Thanks.
END.